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New Post 12/8/2008 11:24 AM
  RebelMike
482 posts
4th Level Poster




My thoughts on Heavy Cav.. 

Ok, so I played and tested alot this weekend. I have read most of the comments and suggestions and tried each one. Some I did not like becuase it changes the mechanics too much. 

I think there is a fear of Heavy Cav or Infantry running the board, and quite frankly, I think it is justified, Heavies should dominate. You should be worried about facing a Heavy unit.

That being said, if you were to limit unit groups for Heavies or Change supports, then how effective are they? If you say, you can only have 3 heavies (9)in a group, what about your opponet? What does he have to do? What if he has a group of 5 light + 1 heavy(13)? I think it gets real confusing.

I think, the 2d6 against Heavy makes sense.. but I also think it only goes into effect if you are facing a 5+ unit Heavy Group. 4 and below would be a normal roll off.

I'd like to discuss this. Now, I know some people will not like it, and really, I am talking about normal games(not tourneys). So I would like to get feedback., but understand, I'd like to keep the rules simple and easy to learn so that we can get new poeple into the hobby. I fear adding a rule here and there will end up causing a problem somewhere else...

Thoughts?

@ Mark, Email the Sheet :)

RebelMike

 
New Post 12/8/2008 11:56 AM
  outposteagle
295 posts
6th Level Poster




Re: My thoughts on Heavy Cav.. 
Modified By outposteagle  on 12/8/2008 10:07:44 AM)

After a few hours of changing and re-changing, I finally have some stats to share.  I have sent an Excel spreadsheet to Mike so he could put it on the site.  The figures referenced below are in the spreadsheet. 

 

OK, here goes.  As I started my analysis, I found something that worried me.  When calculating group fighting scores, it appeared that the common units were a much better value for the AP you spent on them (see figure 1).  For example, it costs 12 AP for a group of 6 Light Infantry-Common units.  That group has an unadjusted fighting score of 12 (a 1-1 ratio).  For 6 Light Infantry-Veteran units it costs 24 AP but that only gives you fighting score of 14 (a 1 – 1.71 ratio).  Basically you only get 2 extra Fighting points for 12 more AP!  This has always bothered me, as I feel that veteran units should be better at fighting than common units.  They do have a higher fighting score, but the way group combat is resolved, their support score, which is the same, gets used.  Another option with this scenario was to limit all groups to no more than 4 units.  This brought the Fight / AP ratios closer and the Fighting score differences were closer (which allowed for just one d6).

 

My first solution was to change the support (see Figure 2).  For these calculations I only used standard Infantry and Cavalry units.  In order to make the AP / Fight Ratio the same, I made the support and the fighting score the same.  This closed the gap a little with the common/veteran issue, but made the fighting score issue worse.  Now you would have to use 2d6 just to make it close.  I think this option will not work, as it stands.

 

My next attempt was to change the way group combat was resolved.  I left the support alone and decided to try using the fighting values of all units in the front ranks and add to that the support values of the back ranks.  This accomplished two things.  First, the Fight / AP ratios were much closer.   Second, it helps to differentiate the Veteran and Common units better.  I think this has a lot of potential.

 

Here is a summary of what actions we could take.  This list is not the only options, as I am sure someone may see other options.  We also could use a combination of these options.

 

Option 1 – Leave everything the same.

 

Option 2 – Use 2 six sided dice.

 

Option 3 – Limit group size to 4 for all groups.

 

Option 4 – Make graduated changes to support.

 

Option 5 – Change the way group combat is resolved.  Use fighting score for front rank and support Score for back rank.

 

 

 

 

My opinions:

 

Option 1 leaves us with the issue of too much difference between some groups and common units being too good a value.  Option 2 looks good for large groups, but it falls apart when looking at smaller groups.  If the group is smaller than 4, any type of unit can easily beat any other.  The dice roll becomes too large a part of the outcome.  Option 3 by itself or in combination could work well.  Option 4 probably would not work, and would have to use group size limits and 2d6 to even come close to feasibility.  Option 5 looks like a good option.  I like the fact that the veteran units would become more powerful in group combat, like they should.  Using 2d6 still shows to be a large problem with small groups, so I think it may not be a good idea.  It works for groups of 6, but not the smaller groups.  Just my humble opinion.   My first thoughts before playtesting is use Options 5 and Option 3.

 

All of this has only been tested on paper and assumes same sized groups with no combat modifiers.  I hope to test this soon.  Please try some of the options and let me know what you guys think.  I also would like to hear any other options.  Thanks for reading this long winded post J

 

 

Mark

 

Added:  In response to your comments, Mike, I do think from a new player standpoint that the Front Line Fighting - Back Line Support seems to make a little more sense than the Primary Fighter model.  And limiting groups to four keeps things close not matter how they are constructed.  I do think that changing the number of dice depending on how many units are involved could confuse things for a new player.  Using these two options, no tables need changed and 1d6 works for everything.

 

 
New Post 12/8/2008 12:17 PM
  jacar
47 posts
No Ranking


Re: My thoughts on Heavy Cav.. 

Hi Mark,

You say option 4 probably would not work but you don't really state why.  I don't agree that you have to limit things to 4 stands.  2D6 is probably a must though.  i suspect that with a game setup like this, 2D6 or some other large die is going to be a must just to make the random factor a bit more apparent.

Keep in mind, on 1D6 an advantage of +1 is a big deal,  +2 is hard to beat and +3 is almost insurmountable.  On 2D6, the range becomes about twice these numbers. 

Point costs do seem a bit linear, but again, +2 does fall into the "hard to beat" range. 

One important aspect that needs to be considered is, do the rules hold up for any number of stands in a group (2-6? 2-4?).  There is a danger here of saying "Ha!  It's fixed for 6 stand groups so the rules are fixed!" :-)

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
New Post 12/8/2008 1:45 PM
  outposteagle
295 posts
6th Level Poster




Re: My thoughts on Heavy Cav.. 
Modified By outposteagle  on 12/8/2008 11:47:13 AM)

Hi John,

I don't think Option 4 would work (even with 2d6) because of some major differences in numbers.  For example, LI-Common vs. LI-Veteran was a 12 point difference (6 unit group).    I think by limiting the groups to 4 you minimize the large variance you will see between groups.  As Mike has stated, I think it should be hard to beat Heavy Cav and some units should not be able to beat them straight up.  Along those same lines, a group of 2 should have an equally hard time beating a group twice its size, so I do think that different group sizes are OK with this system.  Again, limiting the group size to 4 helps minimize the differeces you will see between groups.  I still think that 2d6 would be too large of a swing, but maybe a 1d10 could work.  I'm not ruling anything out unitl its been proven bad on the tabletop.

Mark

 
New Post 12/8/2008 1:48 PM
  jacar
47 posts
No Ranking


Re: My thoughts on Heavy Cav.. 

Hi all,

I've been dorking around at work with spreadsheets myself just to lay out therelationships.  Here are some generalizations.

Between infantry and cavalry of the same grade, there are no differences.  The combat factors and the same as are the support factors.  so you can actually distill this study down to the following.

Light Common LC

Light Seasoned LS

Light Veteran LV

Heavy Common HC

Heavy Seassoned HS

Heavy Veteran HV

The chief difference is that there is a 1 point difference between heavy and light in both support and combat factor.  I've not looked at the archers for simplicity sake.  We can assume they are chutnut if they get meleed. :-)

So, if you look at different cases, you can come up with some ranges.  I would use worst case ranges between HV vs LC for an extreme range.  I would also look at the worst case for highest CF to losest combat factor between LC vs HV.  Finally, we should also assume a homogenius unit of like elements, or at least, types of elements.  All heavies vs all lights.

Case 1 Rules as is

The extreme range from 1 stand to 6

3 4 5 6 7 8

The worst case range

16

Case 2 Graduated Support

Extreme range from 1 to 6 stands

3 4 5 6 7 8

The worst case range

11

so the worst case is still insurmountable with 2D6 but at least is better than the rules as they stand.

Here is another case.  What if you took your best unit, then your best support and then the last units in the group count 1 each?  Then we would get the following.

Extreme range from 1 to 6 stands

3 4 4 4 4 4

Worst case range

8

Analysis:

The rules as they stand have to big of variations between small and large groups.  it would be really hard to control the luck factor and would probably break down.

The graduated support rules would work well enough for homogenius groups.  However, it would break down with different stands in the same group.  Which support factor do you use first?  Largest?  Smallest?  It would cause confusion in this case.

The limit of 4 is ok but I liked the idea of the unwieldy 6 stand group.  Also, you take way some of the visual appeal when you add this limit though not as much as a 3 stand group.

The last way mentioned is taking the best CF, the best support and +1 each aditional stand.  This adds meaning to garbage troops.  It flattens out the range considerably and makes the extreme case only 8.  On 2D6, there is hope.  You don't have to change anything except how combat is computed and the number of dice rolled. 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
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